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Moderate Critics

Jack Craver


 

Jack Craver is a Scientology ex-member, but, like Wolf Tripp and myself, takes a critical look on critics themselves and opposes their actions when these reflect the same kind of bias and close mindedness as what cultists sometimes display. Jack is concise, courteous, pleasant to read, and makes often very good points.


The Satanic Religion

In this post, snipped because too long, Jack is playing the devil advocate and, like critics accusing Scientology of being a "satanic cult", turns the table around using Christianity.

Usenet post from the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology.

Source: Andreas and his Lies

Jack Craver

7 Aug 98

Message-ID: <35cb70ad.8255815@NEWS.MIA.BELLSOUTH.NET>

Perry Scott:
>>>>Yeah, and people mock Christian beliefs like the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, etc. Get used to it - bad manners are everywhere. No, I don't call it "bigotry" and "religious intolerance" when it happens to me.

Jack Craver:
>>>What do you call it?

Perry Scott:
>> Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by ignorance. Or bad manners.

Jack Craver:
And if its not ignorance or bad manners?

Nick:
>Whether bad manners or whatever, this happens all the time. But you don't see Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians or other Christian groups leafletting communities with DA packs, trespassing, killing pets, leaving death threats in Andreas' guestbook or whatever.

You are partly correct. Bob Minton has alleged trespassing, and the dead cat is well, nonsense. I do see christians making war and killing people. I do see charasmatic televangalists performing "miracle" cures (and then begging for money). I do see christian scientists sacrificing their children. I do see christian missionaries infecting a culture, destroying it forever. I do see christians molesting little boys and girls in sunday school.

And the history of christianity is saturated with blood, murder, and more blood. and more *murder*. Not the accidental, mistake kind of murder, but the intentional cold blooded, systemic, torture that resulted in slow, painful death.

Some religion.

>Maybe not every Scientologist has experienced this very dark side of CoS, but that doesn't mean it does not exist or that those who talk about disconnection, fair  game and yes, Hubbard's fascination with the Whore Of Babylon (why do you think Helena Kobrin got that nickname?) are lying. That particular Whore in Revelation, like the Beast and the number 666, have explicit demonic connotations in the Bible and Christianity. "Demonic" means satanic. This does not make CoS into a "satanic cult" in the usual sense of explicit worship of Satan as in LaVey's First Church of Satan (but Co$cn seems to do much more harm than CoSatan, which is why the latter is not  much of an issue). However, there is a strong influence in the cult of ideas, beliefs and methods which an orthodox Christian or Muslim would consider very much satanic. And one of the characteristics of this "small-s satanism" (as opposed to large-S which is e.g. the La Vey group) is deception, the pervasive evil that tries to pass itself off as good, as Robert Minton discusses in his essays (though I don't think he ties it in with anything about Satan). If Hubbard just had a one-time dabbling in black magic regarding the Whore of Babylon but then pursued a totally unrelated path later, then this might not be relevant.

I think christianity is a satanic cult. After all, wasn't it the christians that invented satan. Isn't satan good for christian business? Isn't it the christians that continue this demonic facade and make people afraid, so very afraid, of going to hell? Isn't it the christians with the horrible, murderous history?

Christianity kills, and it has for centuries.

Well, I'm not buying this holier-than-thou BS that you are presenting.

Jack Craver:
>>>>>Perry is supposed to be a "CoS escapee". He's been in Scientology. He *knows* Scn is *not* a "satanic cult".

>>>>As I stated in the another post, "satanic" is a specific Christian concept embodying evil intent. Scientology has Espees. Christianity has Satan.

>Scientology also has "Psychs", who in the cult's "theology" are believed to have much of the characteristics that Christians and Muslims ascribe to Satan and demons. One might also say that Xen_u serves a devil-like role in CoS. Just because they use a different name does not mean they don't have a similar concept.

Sure. "one might say" many things. Psychs and Sp's are human. Your silly satan and his demons are supernatur and eternallly evil. But I suppose that these fundamental facts have *nothing* to do with your righteous comparison of psychs and sp's to christian devils and satan. Eh?

>In fact, the traditional belief about Satan holds that the devil  masquerades as an angel of light, i.e. deceives people into thinking that it is actually something good and desirable. The idea of selling a "Bridge to Total Freedom" that is instead slavery is very demonic, whether or not there is an explicit reference to the name "Satan". One also should note the references in OT 8 identifying Hubbard with Lucifer and antichrist.

Ok, you show it to me and I'll note it.

>>> this abuse seems to go hand-in-hand with religions in general. Christianity included. Miami has recently seen yet another priest arrested for molesting children.

>> The Catholic Church is actively working on the abuse by priests. What is Scientology doing?

That's what they say. And they have been saying that for quite a while. In the meantime, children in sunday school are being molested.

[snip]

>>> If the Michael Pattinson story is true, then I am glad to see this on your site. Abuses should not be ignored.

>> Thank you. With people like you, there is hope for Scientology.

[snip]

>>>>Is that Satan's agenda, Jack?

>>>Satan is apparently unavailable to me at this time. I will try back later to ask him this question. One of the good things about having no gods is, having no devils.

/end rant

So nick, what do you think now? How does it feel to have your religion's beliefs and concepts and actions distorted? 'Cause ya see, I don't believe most of what I wrote in this post. Just playing the devils advocate.

Any position is defensible. But because you can make an argument, doesn't mean that argument is true.

Scn is no more a satanic cult than the boy scouts are.

Quit trying to figure out stupid reasons and angles and tell the truth, if you know it.

jack

 

The Line of Truth - The Satanic Religion



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This web site is NOT created by a Scientologist. It is created by a Scientology EX-MEMBER who is critical of Scientology. However, this ex-member is ALSO critical of the anti-Scientology movement. This does not make him a Scientologist, nor a defender of Scientology.

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