Monica Pignotti <Pignotti@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Diane Richardson wrote:
>> Lifton wrote, and I quote:
>> "Milieu control within cults tends to be maintained and
expressed in several ways: group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailability of transportation, and sometimes physical pressure."
>> Public Scientologists[tm] are not
>> 1.) isolated from other people
>> 2.) separated from society by geographical distance
>> 3.) separated by unavailability of transportation
> 4.) physically pressured into cutting themselves off from society
>How convenient that you left out group process and psychological pressure!
Perhaps you'd do better if you read a message through to the end
before replying to it, Monica. What you're doing now is the written
equivalent of interrupting me in a verbal debate. Although I realize
you believe you're the good guy in the white hat fighting the eeeeevil
force in a black hat, it's common courtesy to allow another to express
her thoughts before condemning her.
>Note that Lifton used the word "or" with the following options: "group process, isolation from other people,
psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailability of transportation,
and sometimes physical pressure. The word, "or" indicates that
it does not have to be all of these things, just one of will suffice. If you have any doubt, look up the word, "or" in the dictionary.
Good grief, Monica, you really *do* still follow the "tech".
>The public in Scientology are subjected to isolation from other people. Lifton does not say "physical isolation". He says "isolation".
Public are isolated from others by being indoctrinated in a belief system that makes them "superior" to non-scientologists (wogs) and keeps them from
listening to anything critical about the group.
Monica, your arguments are growing increasingly strange. A sense of
superiority in no way isolates an individual from larger society.
Unless that "superiority" includes forcibly inserting ear plugs
Scientologist's[tm] ears, no sense of superiority "keeps" him
listening to anything critical. An individual can choose to listen or
not listen to anyone or anything he pleases, whether that individual
is a public Scientologist[tm] or a wog.
>As for "group processes" in Scientology, there are plenty of those, including what goes on in the Scientology courseroom. Certainly "psychological pressure"
is present. There, I've just named three parts of milieu control that are used on public, so that more than qualifies it.
>> This leaves the following milieu control methods open for consideration:
>> 1.) group process
>> 2.) psychological pressure
>Oh I see, you listed them separately.
Yes, Monica. If you had bothered to read my message before screeching
out your objections to it, you would have seen that. You did not.
>> As for group process and psychological pressure, I do not think
that anything done by the CoS is any more coercive than that done by
groups considered "benign" rather than
"destructive."c Twelve step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous and even Weight Watchers use group
dynamics to change members' behavior. What's the difference between how
the CoS uses these techniques and how "benign" groups use
>That's the most asinine statement you've made yet!
I gather this is the most salient criticism you have to offer. Rather
than refute my statements you choose to ridicule them. I think it's
become apparent you have nothing to support your "mind control"
arguments beyond the "fact" that you yourself have been
it. I cannot read your mind or re-live your experiences, Monica. If
it's true for you, it's true.
Just don't advance your "mind control" asssertions as anything
been scientifically proven or commonly accepted. You base your belief
on "mind control" from subjective experience and nothing more.
belief may be as real to you as a superstitious person's belief in
magical spells and lucky talismans. I can point out that there's no
factual basis upon which to form such a belief, but that's certainly
not going to keep a superstitious person from rubbing his rabbit's
foot to keep the goblins away.
Just keep rubbing that rabbit's foot, Monica.
>Well, as someone who has been there and talked with hundreds of people who have also been there I disagree with you. I covered this in my essay and if you can't see it, as Dennis said, you've got to be really either really dense or just wanting to argue.
I would attempt to analyze your essay, Monica, but I find it such a
jumble of poorly conceived notions and misapplied logic that I
hesitate embarrassing you in public over it.
>I realize that there is no way you are going to be convince of this, Diane. You weren't there and are unwilling to learn about this subject. I've wasted far too much time with you already.
Even if I *had* been there, Monica, I would not have experienced what
you experienced. You have developed for yourself a wonderfully
complex rationalization to explain away a youthful decision you later
came to regret. Since then, you have invested a great deal of your
life into perpetuating that rationalization, and it has become a
source of income to you. The "mind control" myth has become far
important to you for anyone -- not just me -- to discuss it with you
rationally. That's become obvious from the increasingly hysterical
tone of your replies.
Keep rubbing that rabbit's foot, Monica. That's the only thing that
keeps the goblins away.