From: Bernie@bernie.cncfamily.com (Bernie)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Diane caves on mind control (sorta)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:23:34 GMT
Message-ID: <3482a241.804104430@news.Belgium.EU.net>Michael Reuss:
>Bernie too agrees that something deeper happens, that Scientology creates "spiritual dependency" which I think speaks to the behaviors which appear to be addict based.>I would agree that some religious conversion experiences can be quite cult-like (I've seen it up close and personal) but in most cases, it is not operantly reinforced as it is within cults. You have to combine the conversion experience with those externally applied lies and conditioning and language redefinitions over a long period of time, before I would say that a religious conversion experience comes close to what happens to (many, not all) Scientologists. I would accept that what you are calling "conversion" does not constitute mind control, but if you pile on all those externally imposed pressures over an extended period of time, then there is definitely "something deeper" happening. Something that Bernie believes builds "spiritual dependency," and which I would call mind control.
Thank you for your post, Michael. Needless to say, I agree entirely with Diane, but I won't be really be arguing the subject here again. I think it has been rather widely debated.
The only thing I want to say is that of course I believe that a "spiritual dependency" is created, but, as you may know, I go to great length to differentiate this with what is generally referred to as "mind-control".
I always said that I may agree with the term "mind-control" if it refers to a network of influences, but not if it implies a neutralization of the cult-member's will. My basic assumption is that all the way, the member is there of his own choice, even if
he is mistaken and even if he is the first to influence himself through self-delusion.That's a fundamental difference, and you can't just equate my notion of "spiritual dependency" with Singer et all notion of "mind-control". All of the "external factors" that are often brought in in the notion of mind control "milieu control, pressure, sleep deprivation, hypnosis, etc..." are relatively nothing, IMO, compared to the power of ideologies and the manipulation of ideologies. That's where the difference lay: I view the "spiritual dependency" as something inherently subjective, while the mind-control theory tries to bring in objective and external factors in play. The difference is tremendous, as I hope you could see with the examples of conservatorship I posted recently.
From: Bernie@bernie.cncfamily.com (Bernie)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,atl.support.ex-cult
Subject: Re: Contracts in Scientology
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:31:13 GMT
Message-ID: <32ac5f5a.23940214@news.ping.be>hendersn@zeta.org.au (Zed) wrote:
>Bernie@bernie.cncfamily.com (Bernie) wrote:Zed:
>"Next-life" Scientologists can easily avoid any problems I presume. I was thinking more of people who have signed the contract in this lifetime. Aside from the psychological pressure of "betraying the group", is there any actual legal pressure from signing the contract? I seriously doubt it, but you never know what threats the Church may try.No, obviously not. But, aside from your one billion year contract, you have the normal staff member contract as well. Staff member do think that this is a real contract. In reality I don't know if it would be binding in court or not, but they do believe it is.
The one billion year contract is viewed as both symbolic and real. Symbolic like posing an act of devotion and loyalty towards the COS. Of course it also means that you will spend the rest of your life at the COS service. Real, because they do sincerely belief that the contract will be binding for one billion year, no joke. If you hold the Scientology tenants as true (past lives, OT powers, Scientolology-the-savior), then you can easily believe it is.
Someone:
>>Or another recruitment tactic: here is the contract you have signed in your preceding life. You forgot it because of your sejourn on Arcturus implant station, but a little bit of auditing will revive your memory about this.>Good grief. I wonder how that would go down among the wogs?
Never hear that they tried. Anyway, they belief that if this was the case, no forcing will be needed. You would direct yourself "intuitively" towards the movement. Something like the Dalai Lama reincarnation belief (BTW: watch out for all 10 years old boys with red hair. Who knows it's now LRH!)
>I found the contract floating on my hard drive. I'll repost it soon.
Argh! This will for sure "restimulate" me.
>So there's legal pressure, psychological pressure and now financial pressure.
Exactly as you say, and most of these pressure are probably all false. One needs to debunk them one at the time.
> An ex-Scientologist's lot is not a happy one.
I don't know. I don't think it is much worse than the average homo sapiens. Do you think "normal" homo sapiens are so much more happy?
>Dennis mentioned the study of other religions as a way of softening this blow. I think that's an extremely good idea.
Definitely yes. I suppose this may account for my own more or less detached attitude towards this all. I was already extremely versed in a great variety of religions and philosophies before entering the COS, and studied some more upon my exit.
It has the effect to extend your viewpoint tremendously, and most importantly gives you comparison landmarks. I was often amazed by the fact that most staff member in the COS didn't know anything else than Scientology. This reinforced their conviction that Scientology was The Truth(tm). They were often surprised when I told them that some beliefs and explanations were to be found in this or this philosophy as well.
Something else to keep in mind regarding this is that Scientology, who can be more or less accurately be compared to drugs, does have a similar effect as drugs when you exit as well. Of course you have the "withdrawal" effect, the necessary deconditionning, and bla and bla. But it also often acts as a door opening, just like drugs. Upon stoping drugs, in addition with the problem it entails, you also are still "longing" for something, something that you have "seen" through the door it opened. This accounts for many cult member's initial interest: to have the height of drugs without the dependency aspect. What they don't realize, of course, is that they go for a dependency of another kind.
But then, when they are out of the cult, they also often long for this something, in parallel with the other problems they have to resolve. This often brings them towards other spiritual philosophies, just like the drugs brought them towards the cults. Scientology effectively acted, for many, as a door opener on the spiritual realm.
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